My Math Forum Cardinality of all operations on rational numbers

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 July 29th, 2016, 12:19 AM #1 Senior Member   Joined: May 2015 From: Arlington, VA Posts: 397 Thanks: 27 Math Focus: Number theory Cardinality of all operations on rational numbers What is the cardinality of all operations of addition, multiplication and exponentiation upon rational numbers?
 July 29th, 2016, 09:16 AM #2 Math Team   Joined: Dec 2013 From: Colombia Posts: 7,618 Thanks: 2608 Math Focus: Mainly analysis and algebra Cardinality applies to sets, not operations. However, there are only a countably infinite number of finite sums, multiplications, exponentiation, etc. using only rational numbers. Since nobody knows (for sure) how to evaluate infinite sums, products, exponentiations, etc. it doesn't necessarily make sense to talk about them. But there are uncountably many infinite summation, multiplication, exponentiation, etc. expressions. All of this comes from applications of Cantor's diagonal argument or the cardinality of countably infinitely many countably infinite sets. Thanks from 123qwerty
July 29th, 2016, 09:37 AM   #3
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by v8archie Cardinality applies to sets, not operations. However, there are only a countably infinite number of finite sums, multiplications, exponentiation, etc. using only rational numbers. Since nobody knows (for sure) how to evaluate infinite sums, products, exponentiations, etc. it doesn't necessarily make sense to talk about them. But there are uncountably many infinite summation, multiplication, exponentiation, etc. expressions. All of this comes from applications of Cantor's diagonal argument or the cardinality of countably infinitely many countably infinite sets.
Helping someone is not useful when you "enslave" him.
You are not helping him. You are just making him behave like you.
You are parrot and you are trying to make others parrots like you.

 July 29th, 2016, 10:36 AM #4 Math Team   Joined: Dec 2013 From: Colombia Posts: 7,618 Thanks: 2608 Math Focus: Mainly analysis and algebra If you disagree with my analysis, post some coherent counter-argument rather than hurling abuse.
 July 29th, 2016, 10:51 AM #5 Banned Camp   Joined: Dec 2013 Posts: 1,117 Thanks: 41 Loren is not dumb and you are too dumb to understand what he has in mind. His question in fact is " what if we apply the concept of cardinality to operations not sets? You are reacting like robot because you are assuming that Loren knows nothing about set theory (which is itself controversial). Contempt contempt contempt at work
 July 29th, 2016, 11:34 AM #6 Senior Member   Joined: May 2015 From: Arlington, VA Posts: 397 Thanks: 27 Math Focus: Number theory Actually, v8archie's response is generally helpful -- somewhat at my level of understanding. I needed some reminding and application. I too am sensitive to criticism, but usually benefit when it is constructive. He knows from previous conversations that I am able to comprehend most of what he says. Repetition here helps. His comment about evaluating infinite sums (and products and exponents) was insightful. Overall, you identified my concern: "[Loren's] question in fact is 'what if we apply the concept of cardinality to operations not sets?'" Or sets of operations. Thanks, mobel. Thanks from 123qwerty
 July 29th, 2016, 11:56 AM #7 Global Moderator     Joined: Oct 2008 From: London, Ontario, Canada - The Forest City Posts: 7,923 Thanks: 1123 Math Focus: Elementary mathematics and beyond mobel, please be polite. Personal attacks are not helpful to anyone.
July 29th, 2016, 12:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Loren Actually, v8archie's response is generally helpful

How are you thinking to apply cardinality to operations? There can be only countably many additions in a single expression because each adds another term. Similarly for multiplication. You can only raise something to a countably infinite number of powers too. In fact all operations, because they are evaluated in sequence, can be used at most a countably infinite number of times in a single expression.

 July 29th, 2016, 01:21 PM #9 Senior Member   Joined: Jun 2015 From: England Posts: 891 Thanks: 269 I gotta say that we are using the term 'operation' rather loosely here. I guess you mean binary operation? A binary operation mean an operation that combines two elements of the source set (rationals in this case) to form an output. As archie has observed we can cascade such operations to three, four or more elements but we can only do that for as many elements as there are in the set and the rationals are countably infinite. If we are allowed to exponentiate to powers that are not in the set (eg to the power of any real number) then there is no countable restriction like this.
 July 29th, 2016, 10:11 PM #10 Senior Member   Joined: May 2015 From: Arlington, VA Posts: 397 Thanks: 27 Math Focus: Number theory I hear you, v8archie and studiot. The number of elements for possible operations N on the rationals (Q -- countably infinite elements) is primarily countably infinite. What about the possible cardinality for the set of operations with elements numbering as N=2^Q, as studiot may be suggesting?

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