July 15th, 2013, 04:28 PM  #21  
Senior Member Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 2,384 Thanks: 743  Re: Utopia Quote:
In fact the US government does a lot of things its citizens object to, but most people are simply too busy or too uninformed to do anything. And of course the social and economic cost of "doing something" can be severe ... see Edward Snowden, for example. The result is that throughout history, and most especially in contemporary US politics, the government can do whatever it wants with or without the support of the people. There's never going to be a mathematical theory of making humans behave better. I truly question what is being proposed here and why this thread has any relevance to a math forum. Like I say, I'm often engaged in these kinds of conversations on political discussion forums. That's where this belongs. "How can we get universal whirled peas?" There is no mathematical theory of fixing human behavior that has any reality to it at all.  
July 15th, 2013, 04:33 PM  #22 
Senior Member Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 599 Thanks: 0  Re: Utopia
There are lots of theories that are mathematical and are based on making people behave better. Again, everything adds up always, including the effects of medication. Would I be accurate if I say sometimes people get medication they should not? You betchya. Is this normally the case? I sure hope not... Statistically, most medications do what they are supposed to even if among other things. Who is to decide whether or not the medication is working? Is there a mathematical solution to all problems? That is the point of this thread. 
July 15th, 2013, 04:48 PM  #23  
Senior Member Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 2,384 Thanks: 743  Re: Utopia Quote:
Quote:
Hitler started imposing his evil laws a little bit at a time. You know, a little surveillance here, a little "enhanced interrogation" there. No wait, that's what's happening in the US. But you see the point. Everyday people just operate their lives. You can't turn your life and your family's life upside down to right every wrong you see around you. Most of the time you just keep quiet and hope for the best. So any theory of "making everyone behave rationally" has no relevance in the real world. Just follow the news. We find out that the government is spying on everyone's electronic communications; and instead of being outraged, we spend all our time asking if the leaker is a traitor and whether he should be prosecuted or just executed without trial. The president of the US has a "kill list" that he reviews weekly, deciding which American citizen deserves assassination without due process. Why aren't Americans marching on the White House in outrage? Why not start with that data point and ask yourself why this is all happening right here, right now, even as you and I have this conversation. Anyway like I say, this is a ridiculous conversation to have on a math forum. This has nothing to do with bounded rationality; nor does the theory of bounded rationality have any bearing on the real world. The idea is that if people were only informed and rational, they'd do the right thing. But over and over throughout history, and even in this very moment, we see that people have more access to information than ever before; and most people are basically decent; and yet our government perpetrates great evil every day. And what do people say? "Well, the government know best. They're keeping us safe from the terrorists." Grrrr. If there were a political subforum here, this conversation would make sense. As it is, I should leave it alone because in fact I do have a lot of political opinions, and they don't belong here. Other than to point out that decency, rationality, and knowledge do not seem to have any impact on the collective evil being done in our name.  
July 15th, 2013, 04:58 PM  #24 
Senior Member Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 599 Thanks: 0  Re: Utopia
I think we are on the same page. Models, axiomitization, and such. Nothing much to consider here that hasn't been already I realize. My contribution is that of a clown. Infinities are my cup of tea. I want to let everyone enjoy my work if they choose to... Better ask CRG though. Let there be light. 
July 15th, 2013, 05:16 PM  #25 
Senior Member Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 599 Thanks: 0  Re: Utopia
Please lock this thread. No more crazy talk for this bean counter. 
July 15th, 2013, 05:29 PM  #26 
Global Moderator Joined: Nov 2006 From: UTC 5 Posts: 16,046 Thanks: 938 Math Focus: Number theory, computational mathematics, combinatorics, FOM, symbolic logic, TCS, algorithms  Re: Utopia
Further discussion of game theory, social choice theory, bounded rationality, etc. is welcome here. Political discussion belongs (if anywhere) on Introductions and Other Topics.

July 15th, 2013, 05:55 PM  #27  
Senior Member Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 2,384 Thanks: 743  Re: Utopia Quote:
My point, though, is that even the idea of bounded rationality is inapplicable to the real world. Even full rationality is useless. I claim that fully rational actors possessed of all the facts will still make decisions that are locally correct but globally horrible. In fact there's a more precise mathematical point to be made. If each actor in a system does the most rational thing in each instance; the global effect can still be irrational. This is a conclusion I've reached from studying current events all my life. You take a city council full of decent, saltoftheearth people; and collectively they will do the dumbest things. Is there a name for this theory? The idea that each individual actor is locally rational; yet the global behavior is irrational. It's some kind of manifold analogy ... at each point it looks Euclidean, but globally it's not. At each point each individual's behavior is fully rational; yet the global result is not.  
July 15th, 2013, 06:37 PM  #28  
Global Moderator Joined: Nov 2006 From: UTC 5 Posts: 16,046 Thanks: 938 Math Focus: Number theory, computational mathematics, combinatorics, FOM, symbolic logic, TCS, algorithms  Re: Utopia Quote:
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In other words, this doesn't show that it's inapplicable at all  just the reverse! This is an argument that it is very relevant. Quote:
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July 16th, 2013, 01:49 AM  #29 
Senior Member Joined: May 2013 Posts: 109 Thanks: 0  Re: Utopia
Hi I took a look at your thread and got puzzled when you said that everything can be enumerated. Doesn´t Goedel´s incompletude theorem (both parts) contradict this? 
July 16th, 2013, 06:45 AM  #30  
Global Moderator Joined: Nov 2006 From: UTC 5 Posts: 16,046 Thanks: 938 Math Focus: Number theory, computational mathematics, combinatorics, FOM, symbolic logic, TCS, algorithms  Re: Utopia Quote:
 

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