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April 6th, 2011, 05:15 AM  #11  
Global Moderator Joined: Nov 2006 From: UTC 5 Posts: 16,046 Thanks: 938 Math Focus: Number theory, computational mathematics, combinatorics, FOM, symbolic logic, TCS, algorithms  Re: Analysis of Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post Quote:
Whether that's a good thing is not clear. I tend to think it is.  
April 6th, 2011, 05:21 AM  #12  
Global Moderator Joined: Nov 2006 From: UTC 5 Posts: 16,046 Thanks: 938 Math Focus: Number theory, computational mathematics, combinatorics, FOM, symbolic logic, TCS, algorithms  Re: Analysis of Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post Quote:
The method is not adhoc or illogical, nor is it "fundamentally undemocratic" (it's certainly more democratic than FPTP). The argument that it would be best to wait for PR is reasonable... but since the author seems to support it purely on the basis of political calculus I'm pretty much willing to dismiss the article out of hand. I don't think it gives new correct information to any voter, Labour or otherwise.  
April 6th, 2011, 05:46 AM  #13 
Newbie Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0  Re: Analysis of Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
Thanks for the reply. Having read some of the comments on this same article, particularly by @brian, I understand the significance of this better. It is effectively several rounds of voting until someone has a majority, every voter having an equal vote in each round. It seems good for electing a constituency representative, and if you think it is important for that representative to have the support of more than 50% of the voters, and that getting the “most votes” is inferior to this, you might vote for it. And the vote being for a constituency representative is a positive democratic institution which needs to be kept I think. At a national level, for the division of parties in parliament and the choice of the executive, I’d prefer PR, but this is difficult to combine with the constituency side. It’s very possible of course that the party system is overrated. 
April 6th, 2011, 06:14 AM  #14  
Global Moderator Joined: Nov 2006 From: UTC 5 Posts: 16,046 Thanks: 938 Math Focus: Number theory, computational mathematics, combinatorics, FOM, symbolic logic, TCS, algorithms  Re: Analysis of Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post Quote:
The number of extra MPs you'd need is based on the disproportionality of the system you choose. If it does a reasonable job then you might only need ~10% atlarge members. This is not to say that you *should* choose a proportional system, but rather that having a proportional system doesn't have to mean giving up constituency representation. * You'll note this simplification: I assumed that you don't have Liberal Democrats running as Labor (etc.) and that you don't have any parties beside the main three. A more complicated analysis could take these factors into account, of course, but it's much simpler to just ignore them.  
April 6th, 2011, 06:50 AM  #15 
Newbie Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0  Re: Analysis of Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
One idea I saw which sounded nice was to have the party distribution in the Lords determined by PR. But it doesn't sound like a solution. Your solution, while maybe a bit clunky, at least seems to be excellent for it's purpose.

April 6th, 2011, 09:18 AM  #16 
Global Moderator Joined: Nov 2006 From: UTC 5 Posts: 16,046 Thanks: 938 Math Focus: Number theory, computational mathematics, combinatorics, FOM, symbolic logic, TCS, algorithms  Re: Analysis of Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
What I hate about my system is that it forces people to work within the framework of the party system. If I don't like any of the parties, what am I to do with the party vote? Worse, it gives more power to party officials. But I see it as preferable to the current system of essentially random results in many cases. 
April 6th, 2011, 03:48 PM  #17 
Newbie Joined: Apr 2011 Posts: 5 Thanks: 0  Re: Analysis of Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
That could be a major flaw. People must be able to stand independently. Moreover, just as PR allows small parties to come up according to the support they have, party politics itself should be allowed to dwindle according as it weakens too.

April 6th, 2011, 09:11 PM  #18 
Global Moderator Joined: Nov 2006 From: UTC 5 Posts: 16,046 Thanks: 938 Math Focus: Number theory, computational mathematics, combinatorics, FOM, symbolic logic, TCS, algorithms  Re: Analysis of Alternative Vote vs First Past the Post
Yes, that's just how I feel. I don't know that the problem isn't solved, I've studied mostly singledistrict singlewinner ordinal systems like range voting, STV/AV, and the Condorcet methods. The few proportional methods with which I'm familiar all rely on parties in some way, which I dislike on principle. But it's quite possible that there is a good solution to the problem of party involvement just like there is a good solution to the (false) dichotomy between district representation and proportionality. 

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