My Math Forum  

Go Back   My Math Forum > College Math Forum > Calculus

Calculus Calculus Math Forum


Thanks Tree2Thanks
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
November 3rd, 2018, 10:17 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Joined: Nov 2013

Posts: 19
Thanks: 0

Unhappy Calculate the derivative of a functional.

How to calculate the $J'\left(y\right)$ of
$J\left(y\right) = \int_0^1 g\left( y\left( x \right) \right) \operatorname dx$ ?
It will be useful if can provide the derivation procss.
rubis is offline  
 
November 5th, 2018, 07:53 AM   #2
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2015
From: New Jersey

Posts: 1,603
Thanks: 115

$\displaystyle J(y)=\int_{0}^{1}g(y)dx$
$\displaystyle J(y+\Delta y)=\int_{0}^{1}g(y+\Delta y)dx$
$\displaystyle J(y+\Delta y)-J(y)=\int_{0}^{1}g'(y)\Delta ydx$

Now you have to think through is it ok to divide by $\displaystyle \Delta y$

EDIT:
Let $\displaystyle \Delta y$ remain constant throughout the integration.
Thanks from rubis

Last edited by zylo; November 5th, 2018 at 08:07 AM.
zylo is offline  
November 6th, 2018, 12:34 AM   #3
Newbie
 
Joined: Nov 2013

Posts: 19
Thanks: 0

Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by zylo View Post
$\displaystyle J(y)=\int_{0}^{1}g(y)dx$
$\displaystyle J(y+\Delta y)=\int_{0}^{1}g(y+\Delta y)dx$
$\displaystyle J(y+\Delta y)-J(y)=\int_{0}^{1}g'(y)\Delta ydx$

Now you have to think through is it ok to divide by $\displaystyle \Delta y$

EDIT:
Let $\displaystyle \Delta y$ remain constant throughout the integration.
So $\triangle y$ has nothing to do with $\triangle x$ or something like that?
rubis is offline  
November 6th, 2018, 03:17 AM   #4
Global Moderator
 
Joined: Dec 2006

Posts: 19,878
Thanks: 1835

Have you calculated $J'(y)$ for some particular $y$ and $g$? If so, what did you get?
skipjack is online now  
November 6th, 2018, 07:17 AM   #5
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2015
From: New Jersey

Posts: 1,603
Thanks: 115

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipjack View Post
Have you calculated $J'(y)$ for some particular $y$ and $g$? If so, what did you get?
When calculating the derivative, you specify a $\displaystyle \Delta y$, it's not a variable.

There's nothing to compare against if you take a definite integral. You can see it with an indefinite integral:

Let $\displaystyle J(y)=\int g(y(x))dx$
$\displaystyle y(x)=ax$
$\displaystyle g(y)=\sin y$
$\displaystyle J(y)=\int \sin axdx=-\frac{1}{a}\cos ax=-\frac{1}{a}\cos y$
$\displaystyle J'(y)= \frac{1}{a}\sin y$


$\displaystyle J'(y)=\int g'(y)dx=\int \cos y dx=\int \cos axdx=\frac{1}{a}\sin ax=\frac{1}{a}\sin y
$
Thanks from rubis

Last edited by skipjack; November 6th, 2018 at 01:27 PM.
zylo is offline  
November 6th, 2018, 01:41 PM   #6
Global Moderator
 
Joined: Dec 2006

Posts: 19,878
Thanks: 1835

So, zylo, are you claiming that the original problem, using a definite integral,

(a) doesn't make sense,
or
(b) makes sense, but can't be answered by your method,
or
(c) makes sense, but always has an answer that doesn't depend on the choice of g,
or
(d) makes sense, but always has an answer that doesn't depend on the choice of y?
skipjack is online now  
November 7th, 2018, 04:55 AM   #7
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2015
From: New Jersey

Posts: 1,603
Thanks: 115

None of the above. I gave an answer that makes sense in the context of the question.

EDIT: Elaboration.
You can think of it as a special case of Calculus of Variations. Instead of taking an increment of y as an arbitrary close function, you take the case of a constant increment. That's indicated by the J'(y) notation.

Last edited by zylo; November 7th, 2018 at 05:11 AM.
zylo is offline  
November 7th, 2018, 12:26 PM   #8
Global Moderator
 
Joined: Dec 2006

Posts: 19,878
Thanks: 1835

The original question is about a definite integral, but you haven't answered it for such an integral, either in the general case or for some particular choice of $g$ and $y$.

Stating that there's nothing to compare against if you take a definite integral, doesn't make it clear whether you mean that the original question, using a definite integral, makes sense or can be answered by your method.

Your method doesn't include a comparison, so "nothing to compare against" is referring to some comparison that you never specify.
skipjack is online now  
November 7th, 2018, 12:36 PM   #9
SDK
Senior Member
 
Joined: Sep 2016
From: USA

Posts: 503
Thanks: 281

Math Focus: Dynamical systems, analytic function theory, numerics
As usual, zylo has "solved" the problem by just making up nonsense at will and throwing around notation that doesn't make any sense. For starters, a derivative is a linear functional and while I have no clue what half of the manipulations he has done are supposed to mean, it's obvious that his solution is not a linear functional so it isn't even the correct type of object. At this point I consider him a lost cause, but I wanted to caution you that everything he has written should be ignored as it is complete nonsense.

That out of the way, it would help to know in what context this question is being asked. Usually this material is first seen in a course on functional analysis or calculus of variations. If you are in a course such as this, then start by explaining what you have already done/thought about and where you are stuck.

If this problem is arising in some other context and you haven't had a course in functional analysis, then you just need to do a bit of reading. The derivative in this context may seem awkward, since the functional you have written is defined on some function space (e.g. continuous functions which map from $\mathbb{R}$ into $[0,1]$). The derivative is thus a linear functional defined on an infinite dimensional vector space. You should google "functional derivative" to get started and feel free to ask additional questions as you go. But they should be specific and you should include any work that you have done. The wikipedia page on this is fairly easy to follow as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_derivative

Last edited by skipjack; November 7th, 2018 at 12:57 PM.
SDK is offline  
November 7th, 2018, 01:55 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Joined: Mar 2015
From: New Jersey

Posts: 1,603
Thanks: 115

Quote:
Originally Posted by zylo View Post
You can think of it as a special case of Calculus of Variations. Instead of taking an increment of y as an arbitrary close function, you take the case of a constant increment. That's indicated by the J'(y) notation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zylo View Post
Example:

Let $\displaystyle J(y)=\int g(y(x))dx$
$\displaystyle y(x)=ax$
$\displaystyle g(y)=\sin y$
$\displaystyle J(y)=\int \sin axdx=-\frac{1}{a}\cos ax=-\frac{1}{a}\cos y$
$\displaystyle J'(y)= \frac{1}{a}\sin y$


$\displaystyle J'(y)=\int g'(y)dx=\int \cos y dx=\int \cos axdx=\frac{1}{a}\sin ax=\frac{1}{a}\sin y
$
$\displaystyle J'(y)=\int_{0}^{1} g'(y)dx=\frac{1}{a}\sin ax\biggr\rvert_{0}^{1}=\frac{1}{a}\sin a$

I think OP is a good introductory example, if properly understood, of general concept of calculus of variations, as opposed to just referencing wiki articles without understanding. It took me a while to see the connection as a special case. See above.

Other solutions to OP. with explanations and derivations, are welcome.
zylo is offline  
Reply

  My Math Forum > College Math Forum > Calculus

Tags
calculate, derivative, functional



Thread Tools
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
constrained functional minimization - functional linear in the derivatives el keke Calculus 0 October 31st, 2014 01:07 PM
using series to calculate 9th derivative Imaxium Calculus 2 April 13th, 2014 10:42 PM
derivative of a squared functional wrt. integration limit hultr Applied Math 1 April 29th, 2013 02:14 PM
Derivative of a functional series Dougy Real Analysis 5 October 3rd, 2012 03:43 PM
Functional derivative cris(c) Applied Math 0 July 6th, 2012 05:58 PM





Copyright © 2018 My Math Forum. All rights reserved.