
Calculus Calculus Math Forum 
 LinkBack  Thread Tools  Display Modes 
May 29th, 2017, 11:23 AM  #1 
Senior Member Joined: Mar 2015 From: New Jersey Posts: 1,449 Thanks: 106  upper limit = lower limit implies convergence
If $\displaystyle \overline \lim_{n\rightarrow \infty}S_{n}=\underline \lim_{n\rightarrow \infty}S_{n}=S $ the sequence converges. It seems obvious, but does anyone have a formal proof? Definition from: Upper Limit  from Wolfram MathWorld "An upper limit of a series upper $\displaystyle \lim_{n\rightarrow \infty} S_{n}=\overline {\lim_{n\rightarrow \infty}}S_{n}=k $ is said to exist if, for every $\displaystyle \epsilon>0, S_{n}k<\epsilon$ for infinitely many values of n and if no number larger than k has this property." Similarly for lower limit. 
May 29th, 2017, 02:36 PM  #2 
Senior Member Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 2,007 Thanks: 574  
May 29th, 2017, 06:09 PM  #3 
Senior Member Joined: Mar 2015 From: New Jersey Posts: 1,449 Thanks: 106 
The referenced article is unintelligible at first reading. However, it states that $\displaystyle \inf_{n>N}\leq a_{n} \leq \sup_{n>N}$ But inf is greatest lower bound which is not the same as lower limit. See OP. So the article is irrelevant. I note Rudin mentions the OP theorem but doesn't prove it. 
May 29th, 2017, 06:23 PM  #4 
Senior Member Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 2,007 Thanks: 574 
I would love to hack this one out but haven't got the time at the moment. I thought my link was about lim inf and lim sup. Those are alternate names for what you're calling lower and upper limits respectively. I didn't read the link very closely. You can probably google around and find a proof. If infinitely many values are within epsilon of the lower limit and also the upper limit then the sequence can't converge. If I had to do this I'd start there and bang it out from the defs. ps I read the link. There are a couple of good posts showing approaches to this problem. It's always a bit of work to do lim inf and lim sup proofs, the notation and concepts are a little slippery. Last edited by Maschke; May 29th, 2017 at 06:26 PM. 
May 29th, 2017, 07:26 PM  #5 
Math Team Joined: Dec 2013 From: Colombia Posts: 7,395 Thanks: 2476 Math Focus: Mainly analysis and algebra 
Wolfram is clear that the Upper Limit is not the same as the Supremum Limit, but that is not the same as saying that it doesn't apply because $\inf a_n$ is not the lower limit. The key point about the Upper/Lower Limits definitions is the same as the Supremum/Infimum Limits: they define a region within which the sequence ultimately oscillates. So the proof is going to start with pointing out that since both Upper and Lower Limits exist, the sequence doesn't diverge to $\pm\infty$. Given that, I think we can then go for the contrapositive and show that a divergent sequence $a_n$ must have $$\overline{\lim_{n \to \infty}} a_n \ne \underline{\lim_{n \to \infty}} a_n $$ 
May 29th, 2017, 09:20 PM  #6 
Senior Member Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 2,007 Thanks: 574 
Here's another SE thread with some good insights. I didn't read much of it, but it looks clearer. Lim inf and lim sup are notoriously slippery concepts. You have to work at this problem a little, you can't just see a proof and go "Oh, I got it," without a fair amount of work. https://math.stackexchange.com/quest...rgentsequence ps ... Another clue from that thread. I have the visualization now. If $(a_n)$ is bounded then it has an inf and a sup. We can visualize these as two horizontal lines in the plane, between which all of the terms of $(a_n)$ live. It's like the outer envelope of all the points. Now define $u_n = \sup \{a_k : k \geq n\}$. In other words $u_n$ is the "sup of the $n$th tail." Likewise $d_n$ is defined as the inf of the $n$th tail. Now we define $\lim \sup a_n = \lim_{n \to \infty} u_n$ and likewise for lim inf. So lim sup is the "limit of the tail sups." and lim inf is the limit of the tail infs. Why do these limits exist? Needs proof, but the tail sups are monotonic and so are the tail infs and that leads to the proof. Now we can imagine the $u_n$'s and $d_n$'s as creating a shrinking envelope. If we connected the dots, we'd have a funnel narrowing down as $n$ increases. If the gap between $u_n$ and $d_n$ is greater than zero, the sequence doesn't converge; and if the gap goes to zero, the sequence converges. This is now obvious intuitively and you could bang out a formal proof if you were so inclined. Last edited by skipjack; May 29th, 2017 at 10:26 PM. 
May 29th, 2017, 10:22 PM  #7 
Senior Member Joined: Aug 2012 Posts: 2,007 Thanks: 574 
My edit window timed out before I could fix the markup. The broken line is the definition of lim sup as the limit of the tail sups: $\lim \sup a_n = \lim_{n \to \infty} u_n$ I hope it's clear what's going on. The tail sups are monotone decreasing and the tail infs are monotone increasing. If their difference goes to zero, they squeeze all but finitely many elements of the sequence into any epsilonball. All of this is not the proof, just the visualization. You still have to nail down the symbology. Last edited by Maschke; May 29th, 2017 at 10:24 PM. 
May 30th, 2017, 09:57 AM  #8 
Senior Member Joined: Mar 2015 From: New Jersey Posts: 1,449 Thanks: 106 
Your upper and lower lines are limit points for infinite numbers of s_{n}. but you need a third or more lines to indicate other possible limit points if upper limit is unequal to lower limit. The existence of inf and sup doesn't rule out limit points between them. Assume inf=sup. Then there is no limit point between them and $\displaystyle s_{n}s<\epsilon$ for n>N? No. All you can say is for an infinite number of n greater than N, not for ALL n>N. EDIT: That's the definition of greatest lower bound and least upper bound. Last edited by zylo; May 30th, 2017 at 10:04 AM. 
May 30th, 2017, 09:59 AM  #9 
Math Team Joined: Dec 2013 From: Colombia Posts: 7,395 Thanks: 2476 Math Focus: Mainly analysis and algebra 
That why I'd go for contrapositive. All those problems go away I think.

May 30th, 2017, 10:12 AM  #10 
Senior Member Joined: Mar 2015 From: New Jersey Posts: 1,449 Thanks: 106  

Tags 
convergence, implies, limit, lower, upper 
Thread Tools  
Display Modes  

Similar Threads  
Thread  Thread Starter  Forum  Replies  Last Post 
Upper and lower bound of A1 and A2 ( please help me out)  Ayxd77789  Real Analysis  2  December 19th, 2016 04:35 PM 
Cumulative Frequency  Last Class has no Upper Limit  JCT  Probability and Statistics  1  July 2nd, 2016 12:51 AM 
upper limit of function (sum of list of exponents)  nekdolan  Calculus  1  April 25th, 2013 01:33 PM 
Lower and upper bounds  will_hunting_math  Computer Science  13  April 6th, 2013 11:14 AM 
Upper lower bounds  Kiranpreet  Algebra  4  April 1st, 2008 09:42 AM 